By definition!
Look, we all know postdocs (postdoctoral scholars, postdoctoral researchers, postdoctoral fellows, etc) are in their temporary poorly-paid positions because the academic pipeline is broken - and not because more training (and certainly not more training in science, as opposed to management, administration, and grant-writing) is actually necessary for them to be qualified. A generation ago, people got their PhDs and then got faculty jobs right away. Now...there is a huge glut, so take a number and get on line and hope for a Science or Nature paper to bump you ahead.
Postdocs have earned doctorates - the highest degree available - and now they are just hanging out in academic purgatory. It's true that some use this time to broaden their skills, but given the ultra-specialization of most universities, that strategy is a gamble. Most just hunker down doing something almost identifical to their PhD work. Anyway, it is just adding insult to injury to call them "students," as though they are working toward any goal, degree, or professional certification beyond getting a job.
Geez, it's been getting on five years since I was a postdoc myself, and when I hear "postdoctoral students" it still drives me apeshit.
Sunday, January 24, 2010
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16 comments:
I'll just say that I agree with you and that I hear it way too often. Drives me batt-tay.
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Thanks, anonymous spam commenter dude. Your little scam earning scheme seems totally viable as a way to procure a decent living wage when compared to many science postdocs. I would heartily encourage many junior colleagues to check out your website rather than most postdoctoral positions. Thanks again for your timely spam comment on my blog, you fucking dumbass.
Ponder life outside of academia. No seriously.
My ex-boyfriend got his PhD in Art History and did the adjunct professor tour for a few years (we broke up in that time period). And when he was jerked around enough realizing no one was going to keep him and he had no chance at tenure, he found work at a museum and since then has been a museum person.
Another guy I dated, PhD in Economics, just worked for a non-profit, being their economist.
Neighbor, PhD in History, works for the government.
If you're looking for love from academia, you're not going to get it.
Thanks Mari - that is good advice. In my case, actually, I took your advice about 5 years ago when I left a miserable postdoc (though I was not termed a "student") and came to D.C. Some separation anxiety at first, but haven't ever looked back. Yet I must be suffering from PPSD (post-postdoc stress disorder): when I see a demeaning term like "postdoctoral student" it still pisses me off.
I can't believe this phrase has, until now, escaped the attention of my anal pet peeve list. I will correct this immediately.
That's quite a rant for a pretty esoteric topic.
Then again, don't get me started on people who say, "Just between you and I..."
It ain't esoteric if you're living the nightmare. The university tells you you're ineligible for all kinds of stuff because you're not a student...you're - well, whatever they classify you as. (At my postdoctoral institution i was technically "faculty," which was a laugh.) Then you go back to your department, where you get shat on everyday, and they call you a student. If you're 28 and just got your PhD and have been a student your whole life, "student" is the last thing you want to be. I just think "postdoctoral student," especially out of the mouth of a professor, is unnecessarily demeaning and disrespectful. But it's probably pretty clear that I was temperamentally unsuited to academia, and this pet peeve of mine is a great example of why.
Huh. Agree wholeheartedly that there is no post doc student. With only a lowly MBA, I realize that perhaps this will sound like a stereotype, but maybe the next step is to consider getting a job. Outside of academia. Scary, sure, but the job search is no more difficult than grant proposal writing.
Chris
www.ChrisMoreau.com
Thanks for this my finely ranked friend. I hope I've never said this phrase, although I can be fairly sure I haven't.
Also I very much appreciated the timely and information spam about making money from home. What a very relevant bit of information! I'm so glad it posted that because I would have never know it otherwise. PHEW!
So - great. You're all in the same boat. Would some be so kind and write down the CORRECT term for someone who is mindful enough to look up post-doctoral student (...because something doesn't sound right about it...): post-doctoral fellow? What term would a lay person understand? And: THANK YOU
Anon: There is no single term that applies to all postdocs because there's no uniformity to the positions and their funding sources and required duties. Some are faculty, some are staff, some teach, some don't, some have special fellowships, some are attached to a particular grant, etc.
However, what is uniform is that postdocs are not students because they have completed their doctorates, the highest degrees available.
Part of the problem and confusion with postdocs is exactly what you have identified. Because there is no uniformity, and they are neither students nor tenure-track faculty nor permanent research staff, many people outside the academy don't know what to make of them.
Sorry, but I work at a university (staff) and I view Post-docs more as a student than faculty.
The main reason is that they do NOT have tenure, many of them are not teaching and therefore, do not qualify as being "faculty".
And, sad to say, I find many of our Post-docs arrogant as hell with a smug 'sense of entitlement' which is even worse than those who DO have tenure.
Positions in academia are few and far between. For every position we advertise for, I probably get anywhere from 80 -100 applicants.
So don't hold your breath waiting for someone to offer you a job where you get paid to do research and publishing and little else. I would strongly recommend that you start looking outside the world of acadamia......
Hey Anonymous Asshole of 3/27: I left academia seven years ago. Try reading.
And if everyone who isn't tenure-track faculty is more like a "student" in your eyes, that means all your adjuncts, research assistant professors, instructors, lab techs etc. are "students." Glad I am not in your department, fuckwad!
There is nothing demeaning about being called a student. If you have a PhD and are still learning then what is wrong with being called a student? I would say that being called a postdoctoral student implies progression toward some faculty or other scholarly position. Labeling someone as a postdoctoral student maybe separates PhDs who have a non-academic job from those PhDs who have a job and are working their way up the academic food chain (or trying to).
It is a weird situation because postdocs are obviously different than regular university students. But postdocs generally have more freedom to conduct research than other staff/faculty so in that sense could be termed students.
This resentment of being called a postdoctoral student seems silly (chip on the shoulder?). No one is comparing a postdoctoral 'student' with an undergraduate student, just as an undergraduate student is not compared with a middle school student. Being termed a student might also be a positive thing given that it is removed from the mundane, repetitive connotations sometimes given to titles such as technicians or research assistants.
Regarding the argument between anonymous (not me) and Lt.Cccyxx:
I would say that in most cases, people should be rated/ranked purely based on the individual's merits and ability rather than their research title (e.g. technician, research assistant, student). Some postdocs are arrogant, but some are not. You can't paint all postdocs with the same brush. Most postdocs are different than regular students, some are almost identical to research assistants, etc, and some are separate from both groups. Postdocs come in all abilities so should not all be lumped in the same group.
I disagree with the assertion that there's nothing wrong with postdocs being labeled students. The argument that they are "still learning" would also apply (one would hope) to faculty at all levels of their careers (isn't that why we get into academic study?) as well. The argument that postdocs have "more time" for research is a generalization.
You are wrong when you say no one is comparing postdoctoral "students" to other students. This label makes it much easier to lump postdocs together with grad students. There is nothing wrong with being a grad student - I loved being a grad student - but eventually you earn you PhD and move onto the next phase of your career, which should not be the same thing as more grad school. And if you think about it, many postdocs have more in common with faculty than with grad students...or at least are their own category.
What irks me about it - and I say this as someone who (it seems I cannot say this enough) HAS NOT BEEN A POSTDOC IN MORE THAN SEVEN YEARS is that students are working toward concrete objectives. They are students because they haven't met those objectives yet. Postdocs are in purgatory. They have no objective besides getting a real job. And the implication of the word "student" is that there is specific "training" going on, which there may or may not be for a postdoc.
Finally, let's be practical: institutions TREAT postdocs like employees, not like students. Postdoctoral stipends are not treated like graduate student stipeds for tax purposes. Postdocs don't get student benefits, aren't eligible for student health insurance, have not been "accepted" in any real sense by the department or the institution, do not have their own government (like a student government), and are (my postdoc contract read this way and I bet yours does too) "at will" like an employee.
My whole argument is that postdocs function like professionals and are treated like employees both by PIs and by institutions. They are junior-level professionals, yes, but still professionals. They should be treated as such, including the way they are referred to.
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